What I learned from Hamad was that Hamas is lost. It has no direction.
The leaders of Hamas do not know what to do. There are struggles within
the movement between those who think that they should
realign with Iran and Hezbollah.
Others think that this would force them to support Bashar al-Assad,
which they are opposed to as Assad continues to attack Sunnis in Syria.
The only direction I heard from Hamad was talk of reconciliation with
Fatah. With Hamas so weak now, the leaders of Fatah are even more
adamant in their demands that reconciliation will only take place on
terms set by Fatah — meaning the disbanding of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam
Brigades and other Hamas forces in Gaza and being completely subordinate
to the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas. This is a non-starter for Hamas.
Here are some highlights from our discussion, summarized, from Oct. 2, 2013:
Ghazi: The Gaza situation is not easy. Gaza is like a
big prison; Rafah crossing is closed. The Egyptians have shut down the
tunnels. 1.6 million people are stuck here including students, patients,
families, businessmen, and the situation is so hard. Sometimes people
are dying, if they cannot get the correct medical treatment. Many of the
students lost the ability to study this year. The goods from Israel are
more expensive than those that came in the tunnels. People in Gaza
don’t have money.
I think that the main challenge for us is how we can achieve national
unity and reconciliation in order to put peace in place between us
Palestinians. We must rearrange the whole situation in Palestinian
society and make connections between the West Bank and Gaza. I can say
frankly and honestly that Hamas is interested 100% in reconciliation,
and we have repeated this many times.
Gershon: But can Hamas support reconciliation when
Abu Mazen is negotiating with Israel? Negotiations are going on between
Abu Mazen and Israel, Hamas is opposed to these negotiations, will Hamas
agree with Abu Mazen continuing to negotiate?
Ghazi: I think we have to make an assessment of the
whole situation. We have to understand what is good for the Palestinians
and what is bad — is this by negotiations or resistance or other means?
I am not convinced that the leaders of the Palestinian Authority in
Ramallah are interested in peace or serious negotiations. The lessons of
the past 20 years proves that negotiations lead to nowhere except
wasting time while Israel continues to build more settlements and take
away more of our land and rights.
I think we Palestinians have to sit together to think about a new
political strategy, a new vision [and] how we can face the occupation.
Gershon: Do you have an alternative strategy that can end the occupation and create a Palestinian state?
Ghazi: Most people reached the conclusion that peace
and negotiations are not useful. Abu Mazen went to United Nations to get
membership ... OK, he got the state observer status, but what’s on the
ground? What has changed? There is occupation; it did not change the
settlements on the ground. I think the Palestinian Authority is also
thinking what alternatives we have. We have to sit together, as
Palestinians, all Palestinians, to think what are the most useful
options for us. Now we have a kind of conflict between the resistance
and those who think a political settlement is possible. So we have to
think how we work together.
Gershon: If you want democracy, if you want to ask the people, you need to go to elections.
Ghazi: I think elections are very good, but can we
have elections under occupation? We have no authority. The Palestinians
in the West Bank are still under occupation.
Gershon: You had elections in 2006 under occupation
and those elections brought you, Hamas, to power. You didn’t boycott the
elections then or say that they were not legitimate because of the
occupation. It is much harder to agree to elections when you are not
popular and it seems that the people in Gaza and the West Bank want to
throw you out of power. Now you can say, “How can we have elections
under occupation?”
Ghazi: We cannot be sure that elections under occupation will give us freedom and power in order to be independent and fair.
Gershon: Hamas is not popular today because your
policies brought Gaza under siege due to your refusal to agree to the
conditions of the international community to recognize Israel and
renounce violence. The Palestinian people, especially in Gaza, are tired
of the siege.
Ghazi: From 2006, Hamas was isolated from the
beginning. No one gave them a chance in order to live and govern
normally. From the first moment we won the elections, we were under
oppression, siege, blockade, political boycott, political isolation,
closing off the borders and military attacks.
We have to work together because we are under occupation and so we
have to do something together. It is not easy for Hamas in Gaza. We have
problems of water, electricity, fuel, blockage ... [and it is] hard to
transfer money to the banks. We, Hamas, and other Palestinian
organizations have to make evaluations, conclusions, in order to create a
new story.
Gershon: Those are just words; I don’t understand
what that means. If you’re talking about another intifada, do you think
the Palestinian people are ready for another intifada considering the
price they paid in the second intifada? What is the alternative strategy
you are hoping to develop?
Ghazi: As far as the Palestinians are concerned, the
peace process is blocked now and there is no hope in the future. The
Palestinians cannot be hostage to false negotiations while Israel
continues to build settlements and has no intentions of letting a real
Palestinian state be created. Every day they are building more cities
and taking more land and putting more people in jail.
It’s 20 years that Israel is using negotiations as an umbrella to
continue its policy of occupation. I can’t trust these people. I need a
declaration to say 1967 borders are the borders of the Palestinians.
West Bank and Gaza are not part of your state. You are planting more
settlements everywhere, saying you want some military zone, you want the
Jordan Valley. I don’t believe that Israel really wants peace, that
they want a two-state solution.
Gershon: Is Hamas interested in the two-state solution?
Ghazi: No.
Gershon: OK, so maybe there’s no partner on both sides?
Ghazi: We have no problem to establish our state on the '67 borders but not to recognize Israel.
Gershon: But that’s not peace.
Ghazi: It's mine, this land is mine; you should give
it to me. You should not ask me to give you something in exchange. My
land was stolen. I don’t have to give anything in return to get my land
back. According to international resolutions, according to the UN
Security Council, this is Palestinian territory.
Gershon: Ghazi, in all honesty, it seems to me that
Hamas is in real crisis now. You have lost the support of your friends
and allies. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is gone. Qatar is not so
friendly anymore. Maybe it is time for Hamas to re-evaluate its entire
position and come to new conclusions. Haven’t the Palestinian people
suffered long enough?
Ghazi: We will not surrender our rights. We will continue to struggle as long as it takes.
Gershon Baskin is co-chairman of IPCRI, the Israel Palestine Center for Research and Information, a columnist for the Jerusalem Post and the initiator and negotiator of the secret back channel for the release of Gilad Schalit. His new book Freeing Gilad: the Secret Back Channel has been published by Kinneret Zmora Bitan in Hebrew and The Negotiator: Freeing Gilad Schalit from Hamas by The Toby Press.
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